While browsing in Google Books reading up on Ernest Hemingway, I stumbled on something that I had never heard before. The author of what I was reading stated “The Trinity is the 3 pieces of the Christian faith – the “Books of the Father” (The Old Testament), the “Books of the Son” (the New Testament) and the “Books of the Holy Spirit” (the writings of the early church after it came under the control of the Roman Empire).
Was anyone taught that or heard that? [This is not a request for you to go google this or copy/paste something from Wikipedia].
“The Trinity” is one of those core areas that have divided factions of the Christian faith violently. It’s a concept I never understood – explanations in Sunday School tended to have very fuzzy answers. This is just one of those areas where it gets problematic for a Mormon to start lecturing about Christianity. People on both sides have very inflexible beliefs.
Hmm… never heard it put that way. That’s an awfully narrow interpretation of “Books of the Holy Spirit” if you ask me.
That’s reasonably close to what I was taught in Catholic school. “God” is a Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (or Ghost). The Old Testament gives us insight into God the stern and commanding Father, the New Testament (up through the Resurrection) gives us insight into God the merciful Son (Jesus), and the New Testament after Pentecost (the infusion of the Apostles with the Holy Spirit) gives us insight into the incredible power of the Holy Spirit, the “breath of God”.
Classic orthodox theology on the Trinity is what generally separates the ‘cults’ from true Christian denominations.
The doctrine of the Trinity was understood by the Apostles and authors of the New Testament, as one monotheistic beginingless, timeless God, who exists co-eternally in 3 distinct ‘persons’. Also expressed as one in “Essense” or attributes, but involving 3 distinct personalities or ‘persons’ within that one single God. This is a complex topic not easily addressed in a post, but the “Son” is subordinate in role to the “Father” and yet reveals everything about the Father, is “One” with the Father, was involved in the entire creation process, etc. The Holy Spirit ‘proceeds’ from both the Father and the Son, also involved in the creation process, the work of salvation etc.
Almost all of the ‘cults’ which do not share true Christian beliefs, diverge from orthodoxy on the doctrine of the Trinity. They either deny that Jesus is God, or in some other way, diverge from all the passages such as the gospel of John chapter One, and all the other passages, which reveal this doctrine.
Mormonism, like many of the ‘Cults’ that do not share orthodox Christian beliefs as revealed in scripture and by Christ and the Apostles, actually goes much further afield than most cults. Not only is the orthodox doctrine of the trinity denied, but the LDS/Mormon church further teaches that god was once a man (as we are), that there are numerous such gods, and that human beings can become their own ‘gods’ presiding over their own ‘worlds’ some day. They teach that god himself was created, so they have an infinite regress problem, and a moderen Cosmology problem. (Christian’s believe God is eternally infinite, uncreated, and timeless). LDS/Mormon church has additionally have taught such things as that Jesus and Satan were brothers, god cohabitated to create Jesus, etc. This is Polytheism similar to Pagan and Greek mythology, not Monotheistic Christianity. Although Christian terminology is co-opted by the LDS/Mormon church, the meaning of the terms they use, is completely and radically different than that given by the Apostles and authors of the New Testament, all of whom were either with Christ or were close associates of those who were with him.
Some of the best work on the doctrine of the Trinity can be found in the podcasts of one of the most highly credentialed and respected Christian philosopher / teacher / apologists alive today, Dr. William Lane Craig. (Multiple PhD in philosophy and theology, huge body of published work).
Dr. Craig’s 7 or 8 part series on the Trinity can be found at his “Reasonable Faith” website. I found his material there quite helpful on this topic (and many other very tough topics, ‘The problem of Evil’, proof for the exisitence of God, etc.)
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer?pagename=podcasting_main
Well, all of that was interesting, but wasn’t the question I was asking. I was looking for the origin (if any) of this notion that the Trinity was three bodies of knowledge. Another person says that is close to what Roman Catholics are taught – I think we can agree that Roman Catholics are not a “cult” (right?)
Early on in his 8/28 speech, Glenn Beck slipped in another critical Mormon belief that most Christians probably didn’t catch. He mentioned that while the “Chosen People” of God (the Hebrews) were in the middle east fleeing the slavery of Egypt, another group of Chosen People were living in North America. The origin of the writings of the Book of Mormon rely on the idea that some group of ancient peoples split off from those living in the Middle East and traveled to North America during Biblical times and that Jesus also lived in the Western Hemisphere.
There might be 3 bodies of knowledge but that is NOT the Trinity. The greatest proof of the Trinity is the human family which was made in the image of God. We are God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The basic essence of humanity is father, mother, offspring = family. Cults are not defined by size, but by substance. Cults usually have a strong chain of command which they require you to bend your knee to. Jesus effectively removed the middle man (i.e. Levitical priesthood) and made it possible to go one on one with God, individual salvation, His Spirit living in your heart, His Holy Spirit leading you, the individual, into all Truth. Freedom is what we are talking about, and Jesus set us free from a lot of things. The job of cults, is like Tom Sawyer talking everybody into painting his fence for free and paying for the privilege. They take you captive with words, i.e. theologies, or political theories for that matter. I do not have time to convince you here, but it is way obvious to me through years of study that the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormons, and Islam are all cults without a doubt. Of course, there are a lot of smaller cults among Protestant denominations, sometimes as primary as a single church fellowship. Bow your knee to their authority (just like Daniel was commanded to bow his knee to the golden statue of Nebuchaddnezzar), or you are in REBELLION, earthling apostate. All I need is Jesus, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit. Everybody else is ADVISORY ONLY. If they come as a brother I will listen to them. If they come as spiritual authority over me, I reject them immediately as a false prophet. Jesus is my Lord. You are not. Scripture says obey those who are over you in the Lord. You should, but who decides who is over you in the Lord? You do, not them. And if they recognize this and come with a servants heart and not to lord it over you, then listen to them in case the Lord sent them, but judge them just like you would prophecy, by measuring them against scripture and what the Holy Spirit tells you in your heart.
I’m a little disappointed to see the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints referred to as a cult by an apparently educated and presumably respectful writer. The Trinity as described by LDS is the Godhead, that is, Father, Son and Holy Ghost represented as individual entities and not as the traditional three-in-one doctrine. Instead of learning about Mormonism, Catholicism, Shintoism, and what-ever-other-ism from the pens of persons who think they know, however erudite or well meaning, I recommend visiting instead a duly representative source. Just because one may be at odds, however strongly felt, with another person’s choice of churches, that is not an excuse to diminish the beliefs of others by using epithets like “cult.” A healthier pursuit than fault-finding is finding things in common, in my view. Peace.
Hi, Art. #1. Studied the Bible all my life (I’m 63) and never heard the Trinity defined as 3 pieces of the Christian faith. The 3 things he mentioned are generally true and could be considered “a trinity” as in 3 things, but definitely is NOT The Trinity. Theologically the “theory” of the Godhead Trinity is sounly based and scattered throughout scripture, a co-equal Godhead made up of 3 equally distinct persons with 3 distinct functions. But the greatest proof in my opinion is the human race. The Bible teaches we were made in God’s image. What are we really? We are FAMILY. We are husband, wife, offspring. Genesis makes it clear that Adam by himself was incomplete and lonely. The Trinity Godhead is made up of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are FAMILY. If you study scripture you will notice that the Holy Spirit is primarily tender and nurturing with all those wonderful MOTHERLY, attributes. Matter of fact, Jesus, after the resurrection said that He would go away but would send the Holy Spirit who would come, not promoting Himself, but would instead into all truth and reveal things about the Son. Did you ever notice that those good old fashioned human mothers, the ones we admire the most, were never bragging about themselves but were always bragging about their kids. Their glory is in their children not their own egos, they have a loving giving servant personality. The earthly family is merely a shadow of the Heavenly Family, i.e. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We, the human family, are made in God’s image, i.e. FAMILY. I hope you find this of interest. It is my own little backdoor way of confirming that the Godhead is a Trinity. Of course, Jesus talks about God (in Heaven), Jesus is one earth at the time, and He says the Holy Spirit will come to earth after He, Jesus, returns to Heaven. I reckon that kind of adds up to 3 persons any way you cut it, regardless of fancy-schmancy theological treatises. …………….Now, let me address another issue. Is the Roman Catholic Church a cult? People kind of assume that once you get large enough you can no longer be a cult. I say substance, not size, determines whether you are a cult or not. The RCC is definitely a cult. All you have to do is study the old pagan religion of Rome before Jesus came, and you will understand this. Prayer to saints (instead of many nature gods), sticking the priesthood right back between man and God when Jesus came to do away with the intercessory priesthood except for Himself who has become our High Priest and is now at the right hand of the Father forever interceding for us. No more middle man. In the Old Testament, the High Priest could only go into the Holy of Holies once a year and if he was not ceremonially clean and did not do things exactly right, he was struck dead. The rest of the priests and people were excluded from the Holy of Holies (where the Ark of the Covenant was with God’s actual Presence resided, not totally but as evidence of the covenant, i.e. of Indiana Jones fame). They always tied a rope around the High Priest’s ankle so they could drag him out if he got struck dead, because they also would be struck dead if they went in to the Holy of Holies. Now the RCC and others have the priesthood right back in the middle again, and they derive a lot of wealth and power having convinced people that without them they cannot have their sins forgiven, neither can they get to Heaven. last rites, purgatory, yada yada. One of the secular historians I read, (not a Christian) talked about historical records he uncovered about ceremonies performed in homes 400 years before Christ. People would slaughter an animal, like a bull, and then ask the pagan priest to come and bless it and dedicate the pig to a particular Roman god. They believed that as soon as they priest prayed and dedicated this animal to that god, that the divine attributes of that Roman god were now resident in the flesh of that animal. Then they believed that when you ate the flesh of that animal you were imbibing the actual attributes of that Roman god, like fertility, or strength, or wisdom, whatever. Doesn’t that sound kind of like transubstantiation to you? The RCC teaches that as soon as the priest blesses the wine and the wafer that they become the actual body and blood of Christ. I guess this is why Mafia murderers think they can be wicked all of their lives, and through the magic of last rites, still make it to Heaven after a little grief in purgatory, which if your relatives love you enough and pay enough, a priest can pray for the departed and kind of speed up the release from purgatory. The RCC is very cultish, although there are some people in the RCC who love the Lord and are actually saved, not because of the RCC but in spite of it. But I do not want to unduly pick on the RCC. There are plenty of cult like Protestant churches and denominations, and the Mormons are also right up there with the RCC and are a cult in my opinion. Cults can pretty well be defined as having a religious chain of command, and religious “bosses” that everyone must honor and obey. Jesus took out the middle man and said each person will be taught individually by the Holy Spirit if they have asked Jesus to be their personal Lord and Saviour. Everyone else is ADVISORY ONLY. As you can probably see, Islam is a big cult as well, somewhat akin to Mormonism in regard to their leader receiving a brand new book of revelation from God. Of course, the Muslims are a lot more murderous and not remotely a part of Christianity. But the RCC, Mormons, Islam are all pretty much a case of Tom Sawyer talking everybody into to painting his fence and then paying for the privilege, i.e., in other words, taking people captive with words, spiritual seduction, swimming pools, movies stars, liquid gold. Oops. I kind of got of track there and wandered over into Beverly Hillbillies territory (a mild enjoyable cult). Well, that is all I have to offer for now, Art, although there is plenty more hodge-podge floating around in my brain, but my fingers are tired. Hope you enjoy this little soapbox session. Take care. Larry
As a scholar of the Bible, maybe you can help with my confusion.
Is the Spirit of God mentioned in the Old Testament (Genesis 1:2, Isaiah 61, Numbers 11) the same “Holy Spirit” that is part of the Trinity?
Doesn’t that sound kind of like transubstantiation to you?
No. In transubstantiation, the bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. The substance of the bread and wine changes, while the accidents, i.e., the appearance, taste, smell, and feel do not change. The whole substance changes, and therefore, it is incorrect to say that “Jesus is in the bread/wine.” The whole Christ is present in each species, meaning that what appears to be wine is not just His Blood, and what appears to be bread is not just His Body.
In the animal sacrifice scenario you gave, the pagan priest’s prayers do nothing to change the substance of the dead animal. It looks like a dead goat, and in its substance, it is a dead goat. What the pagans believed about taking on the attributes of this god or that was immaterial as to the reality of the goat’s substance, or the existence or not of their pagan gods.
The RCC teaches that as soon as the priest blesses the wine and the wafer that they become the actual body and blood of Christ.
On the other hand, at the words of consecration said by the priest at Mass, Jesus actually does take on the form of brad and wine. And He’ll do that whether the church is otherwise empty, or packed with Catholics, atheists, or fundamentalist Christians. And what’s more, the Catholic Church has the proof:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
It always amazes me that the Protestants have managed to make God so small. Which is easier for Jesus to do – to say “Your sins are forgiven, and also forgive them, or to say “This is my Body…This is my Blood,” and also change water and wine into Himself?
As to your original question, it is most certainly not what Catholics, Protestants, or any other Christian denomination believe about the Trinity. All mainstream Christian denominations teach that God is Spirit, Mind, and personhood, not 3 different bodies of knowledge. And where would the ‘knowledge’ derive from in any case, if not divine mind?
Also, God’s revelation about himself is progressive. i.e. the New Testament is additional revelation about God in Christ and the Apostolic books by those with him, and it reveals a great deal additional about God, but remains consistent with what God the Father had already revealed about Himself. A bit like starting with the foundation of a house, and then adding walls, roof, ammenities, etc. Over time we got a more clear picture of all the attributes of God. But He Himself has not changed in attributes or character or the complexy nature of personhood in the Trinity.
Yes, Glenn Beck’s slipping in Mormon doctrines of Jesus living in North America, i.e. the Book of Mormon and all it’s stories about Christ coming to the Americas, the history of various Indian civilizations and such, are the creative product of the mind of Joseph Smith.
With the Bible, we have hundreds of independant archelological discoveries which confirm the peoples, cultures, civilizations, and even individual persons, to whom the Old Testament (and New Testament) make reference.
With the “Book of Mormon” there is simply NO independant historical or archeological evidence that any of the alleged cultures, civilizations, peoples, and events depicted every really took place. Not only that, but we would expect far MORE evidence to back the book of Mormon considering all the alleged stories and events were much closer in time to current, and should have left plenty of evidence behind.
Again, Mormonism is simply not Christianity in any way, even though the language of Christianity was co-opted by Joseph Smith and the founders of the Mormon cult. The Mormons tend to be great people, as to family values, patriotic heritage, etc., but their theology is aberrant and not Christian in any possible meaningful sense of the word or as understood by historical revelation of God in the Bible. A good summarization of the differences between Christianity and Mormonism below.
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/index.html
I was wondering why the media let that slip by. Its not surprising he mentioned it.